Message |
|
Author |
by SKaVeN » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:06 pm
Has not a Liberal PM ever been subject to a leadership challenge? I'm not questioning your research, Shaggy (you probably follow politics more closely than I do), I'd just be every surprised if it only ever happened to ALP governments. Anyway, is Turnball stealing the leadership from Nelson & then Abbot from him really all that different? I mean, I know they weren't in power at the time but they are still part of parliament so is it any less ethical? And, if we were to apply the same logic, didn't the people who voted Liberal at the last election vote for a leader who was later replaced by the party (twice)? To address your concern, what do you think would be the answer? The only thing I can think of what be to have some kind of bill passed where it was stated a major party can appoint a new leader only when they are in opposition. I think something like that may leave us open to even bigger problems in the future. I think, in the event of a successful leadership challenge for PM, calling a general election to have the Australian people say whether or not they support this action (as they have just done) is probably a better way...
Last edited by SKaVeN on Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
|
|
SKaVeN
Ned Flanders
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:51 am Posts: 2065 Karma: 3.15 (65 thanks) Location: Adelaide
|
Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:06 pm |
|
|
by Laxative Effect » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:29 pm
hahah i love this, keep it going rusty and modecko
|
|
Laxative Effect
Larry Burns
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:46 pm Posts: 3645 Karma: 181.45 (6614 thanks) Location: Melbourne
|
Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:29 pm |
|
|
by modecko » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:36 pm
Party political history in this country is rife with infighting and backstabbing, even Menzies was back stabbed by his own. 1941 Quote: When Menzies came home, he found he had lost all support, and was forced to resign, first, on 28 August, as Prime Minister, and then as UAP leader. The Country Party leader, Arthur Fadden, became Prime Minister. Menzies was very bitter about what he saw as this betrayal by his colleagues, and almost left politics. Fraser tried twice to depose Sneddon being successful the second time: 1974 Quote: After the election the conservative wing of the Liberal Party, led by Malcolm Fraser, challenged Snedden's leadership, but he was narrowly re-elected. When he failed to make any headway against Whitlam, Fraser mounted a second challenge, and Snedden was deposed in March 1975 1980 Peacock tried to oust Fraser but fails: Quote: ...and also a protracted scandal over tax-avoidance schemes run by prominent Liberals plagued the government. A popular minister, Andrew Peacock, resigned from Cabinet and challenged Fraser's leadership. Although Fraser won, these events left him politically weakened. 1984-1985 Peacock does a Rudd after party backstabbing: Quote: Peacock's popularity sank and Howard's profile rose, keeping leadership speculation alive. Peacock said he would no longer accept Howard as deputy unless he offered assurances that he would not challenge for the leadership. Following Howard's refusal to offer such an assurance, in September 1985 Peacock sought to replace him with John Moore as Deputy Leader.[4] The party room re-elected Howard as Deputy, contrary to Peacock's wishes. Despite possessing greater support in the parliamentary party than Howard,[5] Peacock unexpectedly resigned and Howard was comfortably elected Opposition Leader on 5 September. 1993: (bold mine)Quote: Despite previously having pledged to resign the leadership in the event that he was defeated at the 1993 Federal Election, Hewson decided to continue in his position. He defeated a post-election party leadership challenge from John Howard but his position was never secure from that point onward and political colleagues such as Peter Costello, Alexander Downer and Bronwyn Bishop consistently undermined his leadership over the subsequent year. In 1994 he attempted to quell leadership speculation by calling a leadership ballot, but he lost the vote and the leadership to Alexander Downer. 1995: (bold mine)Quote: On 11 January, Downer launched a major policy statement with ten policy commitments and criticised Liberals he saw as undermining his leadership. 2008: (bold mine)Quote: Despite a small and steady increase after record low polling, Nelson lost the leadership of the Liberal Party to Shadow Treasurer, Malcolm Turnbull, on 16 September 2008 by 45 to 41 votes in a spill motion. 2009: Quote: Turnbull instructed the party to support the bill despite significant disagreement among his colleagues.[42] In response, MPs Wilson Tuckey and Dennis Jensen moved a motion the next day to hold a vote on the party's leadership, but it was defeated by 48 votes to 35. Many front bench Liberals resigned from shadow cabinet over the issue, including Tony Abbott.
Soon after on 1 December 2009, another leadership spill motion was moved, this time successfully. A vote was held and Abbott was elected leader of the party, defeating Turnbull 42–41 As I told you politics is a cut throat business. Now I'm sure if you looked you could find many Labor leadership spills, and in fact the sources I used also tables them. I'll leave that up to you, I just wanted to show the nonsense of your statement.
Last edited by modecko on Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
|
|
modecko
Judge Roy Snyder
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:42 pm Posts: 913 Karma: 99.67 (910 thanks) Location: South Coast NSW
|
Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:36 pm |
|
|
by modecko » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:37 pm
Enjoying it myself LE.
|
|
modecko
Judge Roy Snyder
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:42 pm Posts: 913 Karma: 99.67 (910 thanks) Location: South Coast NSW
|
Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:37 pm |
|
|
by Macc » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:13 pm
modecko, you missed the biggest one of all. Sitting Liberal PM John Gorton was deposed by William McMahon in 1971. Compared to the surgical strike that removed Rudd overnight (remember Rudd actually resigned when he was told he didn't have the numbers to survive a vote) this was carpet bombing with senior Ministers openly attacking Gorton in Parliament for weeks saying he was not fit to hold the office. The Country Party had a veto on a leadership challenge but when Doug Anthony became leader he said the veto no longer applied, so McMahon challenged Gorton.
Apart from Fadden, two other Country Party leaders (Deputy Prime Ministers) became Prime Minister after the death of the incumbent then replaced by new Liberal leaders weeks later. Earle Page became PM following the death of Joseph Lyons and was replaced by Robert Menzies 20 days later. John "Black Jack" McEwen was rushed to Government House when Harold Holt was officially presumed dead, then was replaced with John Gorton 23 days later.
On the Labor side, Frank Forde became Prime Minister following the death of John Curtin, then was replaced with Ben Chiefly. Forde holds the record for the shortest term as Prime Minister (8 days).
The fact remains that Prime Ministers are never elected. The people elect their local MP. Each parliamentary party elects its own leader. The leader of the party with the numbers to form government is appointed as Prime Minister by the Governor-General.
|
|
Macc
Milhouse Van Houten
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:28 pm Posts: 1626 Karma: 43.23 (703 thanks) Location: A small planet somewhere in the vicinity of Betelgeuse
|
Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:13 pm |
|
|
by modecko » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:09 am
You're right Macc, I had actually quoted the Gorton deposition on a political blog and I don't think there are any that come nastier than that from any party. Quote: The leader of the party with the numbers to form government is appointed as Prime Minister by the Governor-General. That's the important point that Rusty seems to have missed. That is not just a one off numbers when they are first appointed as leader, but the numbers throughout their time as PM. At any time another member of the party who thinks or knows they have the numbers to depose the sitting leader can challenge and invoke a spill motion. That is part and parcel for all parties.
|
|
modecko
Judge Roy Snyder
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:42 pm Posts: 913 Karma: 99.67 (910 thanks) Location: South Coast NSW
|
Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:09 am |
|
|
by wolverine » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:45 am
SKaVeN wrote: To address your concern, what do you think would be the answer? The only thing I can think of what be to have some kind of bill passed where it was stated a major party can appoint a new leader only when they are in opposition. I think something like that may leave us open to even bigger problems in the future. I think, in the event of a successful leadership challenge for PM, calling a general election to have the Australian people say whether or not they support this action (as they have just done) is probably a better way... I suspect we will one day see a bill that allows us to vote for the country's leader. It will be delivered via referendum for Australian republic. In principal, I am for republic but unfortunately, it seems we will get the American model where the president is a politician rather than a distinguished Australian performing mostly ceremonial duties.
|
|
wolverine
Capo Bastone
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2002 8:26 am Posts: 3827 Karma: 324.75 (12428 thanks)
|
Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:45 am |
|
|
by RustyNail » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:26 pm
No modecko... you missed the point AGAIN. I stand corrected in regard to Gorton but not even you got that one. I was talking about successfully ousting a PM during their current term in office, not for the leadership of a party. Regardless of what party performs the backstabbing... it is just plain wrong. Is that simple enough for you to understand? Try to be less of an immature little boy lost within his own ideologies whose own soapbox got greasy with pathetic comments like "I wanted to show the nonsense of your statement". Clearly a Labor Voter. hahaa! Looking above it appears you have too much time on your hands and in desperate need a life.
Last edited by RustyNail on Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
|
|
RustyNail
Jimbo Jones
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:41 pm Posts: 217 Karma: 33.64 (73 thanks)
|
Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:26 pm |
|
|
by modecko » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:37 pm
No you miss the point. Current term of the PM or current term of the opposition leader, or current term of any party leader what's the difference?
How is it wrong? It's the party political system and to change it we have to become a republic or change our system to have an elected by the people leader, which according to the rigged republic debate the people of Australia don't want.
So according to the republic referendum the people of Australia want the system where party leaders are only there at the behest of the party whim and can at any time be ousted at the whim of the party. It's the way it is and it's not just a Labor thing as you first asserted.
|
|
modecko
Judge Roy Snyder
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:42 pm Posts: 913 Karma: 99.67 (910 thanks) Location: South Coast NSW
|
Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:37 pm |
|
|
by SKaVeN » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:45 pm
|
|
SKaVeN
Ned Flanders
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:51 am Posts: 2065 Karma: 3.15 (65 thanks) Location: Adelaide
|
Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:45 pm |
|
|
Who is online |
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest |
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum
|
|