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 Capital Punishment 

Do you support Capital Punishment?
Poll ended at Wed May 06, 2015 12:32 am
Yes 47%  47%  [ 8 ]
No 47%  47%  [ 8 ]
Unsure 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 17

 Capital Punishment 
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Postby HumphreyBBear » Sun May 03, 2015 12:20 pm


phunkyfeelone wrote:
Good points on both sides of the issue

Hmm... :scratch: Where are the "good points" raised in favour of Capital Punishment? All I see is "I support Capital Punishment".

phunkyfeelone wrote:
My underlying feeling is that the laws need to be respected, regardless of how draconian they may seem.

Great, then you would agree that Indonesia should cease lobbying the foreign Governments to release the 200 or so Indonesian citizens on death row in other countries that are due to be executed. After all, if domestic Indonesian law must be respected then surely they must respect other nations domestic laws too.

phunkyfeelone wrote:
I agree that where the crime has a long term or permanent effect on an innocent victim (rape, child crimes, murder etc.), capital punishment should be an option, but only if the victim's family agrees.

Then you agree with the International Court of Justice who say these executions were illegal. Indonesia doesn't think so, they executed these men even though no one has been harmed directly, or indirectly.

phunkyfeelone wrote:
What I don't like is spending $120k per year locking someone in a box - just end them now. What people fail to see is that capital punishment is available to more than half the world's population (ok, China and India are easy wins in that category)

Maybe you should move to China, or India; your taxes would not be spent on prisoner rehabilitation. There won't be much time wasted between conviction and execution.

phunkyfeelone wrote:
The other side of this is the hypocrisy on behalf of the Government - "we" condemn the Indonesian government for executing two convicted criminals, and are "against capital punishment", yet sign free trade agreements with China (4500+ executed last year), and go to war alongside the USA (35 last year), plus many others. It seems our government are only against the capital punishment of Australians.

Interesting that you support the domestic laws of all nations (to execute people), yet seem to think that it is not hypocritical of Indonesia to execute people for drug crimes whilst appealing for clemency on behalf on Indonesian citizens accused of murder in other nations.


Carl Carlson
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Postby phunkyfeelone » Sun May 03, 2015 5:31 pm


HumphreyBBear wrote:
phunkyfeelone wrote:
Good points on both sides of the issue

Hmm... :scratch: Where are the "good points" raised in favour of Capital Punishment? All I see is "I support Capital Punishment".

phunkyfeelone wrote:
My underlying feeling is that the laws need to be respected, regardless of how draconian they may seem.

Great, then you would agree that Indonesia should cease lobbying the foreign Governments to release the 200 or so Indonesian citizens on death row in other countries that are due to be executed. After all, if domestic Indonesian law must be respected then surely they must respect other nations domestic laws too.

phunkyfeelone wrote:
I agree that where the crime has a long term or permanent effect on an innocent victim (rape, child crimes, murder etc.), capital punishment should be an option, but only if the victim's family agrees.

Then you agree with the International Court of Justice who say these executions were illegal. Indonesia doesn't think so, they executed these men even though no one has been harmed directly, or indirectly.

phunkyfeelone wrote:
What I don't like is spending $120k per year locking someone in a box - just end them now. What people fail to see is that capital punishment is available to more than half the world's population (ok, China and India are easy wins in that category)

Maybe you should move to China, or India; your taxes would not be spent on prisoner rehabilitation. There won't be much time wasted between conviction and execution.

phunkyfeelone wrote:
The other side of this is the hypocrisy on behalf of the Government - "we" condemn the Indonesian government for executing two convicted criminals, and are "against capital punishment", yet sign free trade agreements with China (4500+ executed last year), and go to war alongside the USA (35 last year), plus many others. It seems our government are only against the capital punishment of Australians.

Interesting that you support the domestic laws of all nations (to execute people), yet seem to think that it is not hypocritical of Indonesia to execute people for drug crimes whilst appealing for clemency on behalf on Indonesian citizens accused of murder in other nations.


[edit: misread your post]
I think support for is more related to the fact the law is currently in place. If our Government and citizens felt so strongly about capital punishment, why do they only rally when Australians are involved? Shouldn't the petition be raised at every international forum?
My reasoning is that we (in AU) spend $120k per year on a lifetime no release max security prisoner, money which could be used for victim support, prevention, or further policing. What purpose does locking someone in a box until they die of natural causes achieve? We focus on the plight of the criminal, not on the plight of the victim. It should always be decided with the appropriate process, and I think the family of a victim should be consulted.
If anyone touched any of my nieces, I would happily push the button myself.

I didn't raise the fact about Indonesia seeking clemency for their own citizens, of course that's outright hypocrisy. Respecting the laws goes both ways of course, I agree with you on this.

If the ICJ says this was illegal, then they should take action, or the Australian Govt. should have appealed. My whole point is that I don't think all the effort is worth it, they were not innocent "framed" tourists, they were leading a group smuggling heroin.

Yes, this was for drug trafficking, but it's the law of the day. Should drug related crimes be subject to death? Maybe not, but it is the law of the day.
You cannot decide or argue the applicable law after you have committed the crime. Don't like the punishment? Don't commit the crime. I don't like the idea of losing my license, so I don't speed.

On the topic of rehabilitation - if you knew a convicted and "rehabilitated" pedophile was at a BBQ with your kids, would you leave your kids alone with them? Nah, didn't think so. Would these two have rehabilitated if not caught? They have done the things they have done in jail to seek clemency, not motivated by any greater good.


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Ned Flanders
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Postby HumphreyBBear » Tue May 05, 2015 1:04 am


phunkyfeelone wrote:
I think support for is more related to the fact the law is currently in place. If our Government and citizens felt so strongly about capital punishment, why do they only rally when Australians are involved? Shouldn't the petition be raised at every international forum?

You are using a sweeping generalisation when you say that Australians only rally when Australians are involved. I can only speak for myself when I say that as an Australian "citizen" I am appalled at the idea that any Government has the power to execute people; I do, and will continue to, fight that power until my dying breath (which hopefully will not be ordered by a Government), but I do know there a many, many, more Australian citizens that think the same as I do.

phunkyfeelone wrote:
My reasoning is that we (in AU) spend $120k per year on a lifetime no release max security prisoner, money which could be used for victim support, prevention, or further policing. What purpose does locking someone in a box until they die of natural causes achieve? We focus on the plight of the criminal, not on the plight of the victim.
It should always be decided with the appropriate process, and I think the family of a victim should be consulted.
If anyone touched any of my nieces, I would happily push the button myself.


The first issue you raise here is that you think that it's cheaper to kill someone if you believe, at the time, that they have committed a mortal sin. Once again, I ask, since neither you nor I are in the position to state who should die, for what crime; who would you trust with such power? You mention the figures concerning locking away a prisoner for life, but you don't mention the cost per year for executing a prisoner. What are those figures?

As for the second part: No one so far in this discussion has said anything about molesting your nieces; so that point is purely emotive, and irrelevant.

If you find yourself in court, would you really want to be sentenced, for any crime, by the victims that accuse you? Supposedly, that's why we have Juries.
Revenge is not a good basis for establishing a system of Justice.

phunkyfeelone wrote:
On the topic of rehabilitation - if you knew a convicted and "rehabilitated" pedophile was at a BBQ with your kids, would you leave your kids alone with them? Nah, didn't think so. Would these two have rehabilitated if not caught? They have done the things they have done in jail to seek clemency, not motivated by any greater good.


How do you know I am not a 'convicted and "rehabilitated" pedophile'? How do you know I am not a 'convicted and "rehabilitated" drug dealer/trafficker'? You don't!!

At least you can take some solace in this: If you are falsely accused of rape , pedophilia, murder, sedition, terrorism, or any other "Capital" crimes in Australia, you will not be murdered by the State before they realise their mistake.
I would hope that your nieces would appreciate that their loving uncle was NOT murdered by the State, since they knew he was innocent all along, or if he had done wrong he was utterly repentant!


Carl Carlson
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